Thinking About the Whole

cross posted at clintonistasforobama
and
coyotebytes

My Mom, who is 88 years old, has Alzheimer's, and I am her caretaker. No one else is going to do this for her. My Dad died 10 years ago, and I am an only child. I rarely write about how trapped I feel by my situation, and I actually spend a lot of time in denial; but its 4 am and in this quiet, pre-dawn hour I not pretending.

So come with me for a second down the rabbit hole--this will get political, I promise...

I live in Southern California and there are two primary "helping" organizations, the Alzheimer's Association and the Southern Caregivers Resource Center. I became acquainted with the Alzheimer's Association through a "support" group I attended in my community.

This group meets across town  for two hours on Thursday afternoons in a residential care facility for the elderly.  It is "facilitated" by a middle aged MSW with a perpetual smile and well modulated voice who oozes concern, but not enough to control the group so that the experience of attending it is like being plunged into an out-of-control kindergarten class.

Each Thursday I would show up to find 4 long dining room tables arranged into a rectangle, boxes of cookies and candies placed on them and chairs for about 20 people. And  I quickly learned that there is no more needy, desperate, anxious and slightly crazed population in America today than those who caretake their spouses or parents who have dementia. And with each passing week I  came away from my "support" meeting not knowing who was "crazier" the helpers or the helpees.

Every meeting was a kind of free-for-all. Structure was frowned upon:

Those who are needy or in crisis"-- self- identified-- please take all the time you need.

And the rest of us then got to listen to the circular reasoning of the damned as they attempted to both cope with and describe the creeping madness in their loved one. I have heard stories of loved ones jumping out of moving cars; throwing keys in the toilet; pausing their vehicle in the middle of the railroad tracks to look at a map.  One particularly determined fellow  liked to run down the street naked and did so more than once. I listened in awe to the story of the  plumber who came to  believe he was a day trader and spent his life savings on the internet. I also listened to the angry and paranoid tirades directed at caretakers on a daily basis; to the accusations of abuse prompting interventions by Adult Protective Services; and lastly to the stories of  the perpetual neglect and mistreatment of love ones, called LO's, which is the standard of care in way too many residential facilities.

Meetings were like torture sessions. Within 10 minutes of whatever particular recitation might be in progress I was ready to respond. With 15 minutes my patience had huge fissures and I was putting candy in my mouth as a pacifier. At 20 minutes it was all I could do not to leap up and scream, "Enough!" At 25 minutes I began counting the number of people in the room, anywhere from nine to 18 and realizing "their" time was evaporating. I sometimes left these meetings and only 5 people out of 20 had spoken.

I also soon realized that I was leaving more stressed than when I had arrived.

It wasn't that I didn't learn useful things, I did. But I could not adjust to the refusal of both the leader and the group to think `about the whole.' The idea that the leader's job is to  think about the good of the entire group is now hopelessly outdated. I know this because I have now tested several different "support" groups and they all work the same way. So in each case the talkative dominate, the quiet ones eat candy and commiserate with them, some people get "their" turn by interjecting their own story into someone else's recitation, and no one thinks about the whole--or even thinks that they should.

I went to another meeting yesterday. And when it was over I whispered to the woman sitting beside me

Are you ok? Did you get to say what you needed?

She shook her head no. And I felt bad for her, but I was more chagrined than she was.

Later as I drove home from San Diego feeling guilty because I do not believe in Alzheimer drugs and every facilitator of these groups "pushes" them--although they say they don't-- and thinking of the stories I had heard, and wondering when my Mom will reach the point that I can't cope alone anymore, I realized that more than anything else I  feel abandoned by the refusal of these agencies and these professional `helpers' to think about the good of the whole.

Their failure to be responsive to the needs of everyone around the table is like a metaphor to me for where we are in in our society.

What has happened to us? How can it become the fashion in professional "health care" situations to let the talkative people dominate a group, and let the quiet ones go unheeded? How can we profess to have a just society  if we are not responsible for others in a cooperative and responsible way? When did rule by the most aggressive and assertive--become the norm in supervised situations. I am appalled by it.

And I can be both aggressive and assertive, so I have no difficulty speaking up. Now that I know how the game is played I can grab my share of the time. But I think it is wrong.

I think stacking the rec list with your friends over and over is wrong.

I think fighting Obama's nomination is  wrong.

And I think all of these things are of a piece: rules that include  all the people around a table, sharing the rec list, accepting the will of the majority. It all involves thinking about the whole. Not just my piece of it, not just I'll get mine, not just

they do it, so why shouldn't we?

And so this brings me to the way many Hillary supporters are refusing to abide by the rules about the nomination. Yes, the caucus rules were sometimes rigged and/or manipulated. Any school kid could tell you that. Yes, the Obama team out-organized the Hillary team. Yes, there was sexism and a poisonous media environment with regard to Hill.  Pundits will be writing about it for years. Yes, the DNC favored one candidate over the other. So if  so much was wrong, why not protest the result?

Because that is not thinking About the Whole. It is not how you do a democracy. If you don't like the way the thing was done, you have to change the way things are done.

Hillary Clinton is a candidate I supported because I know she thinks "about the whole." She isn't going to let the assertive people run the table. She is looking out for the weak and the disenfranchised and the little guy who doesn't have a voice. She is working to make the rules more fair, more inclusive and a whole lot more responsive. Her supporters who are refusing to abide by the results of the primary are not doing that. And they are violating everything she stands for.

Hillary Clinton supports Barack Obama for President. She has asked her supporters to endorse him too. Refusing to do so is like talking for half an hour, everyone else in the room be damned.



Display:


Re: Thinking About the Whole (2.00 / 7)

I think fighting Obama's nomination is  wrong.

Cheers to that.

If people want to stay neutral, that's also their choice, but fighting against his nomination only serves to weaken the Democrats' chances of beating McCain.

Kudos to you, linfar, for taking the lead in encouraging people to rally behind our candidate even if he wasn't always their first choice.

And thanks for sharing the story about your mother -- I wish you both well.


by jdusek on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:47:26 AM EST

Re: Thinking About the Whole (2.00 / 32)

thanks jdusek. We need all the help we can get which is why we do not need a McCain presidency :)


by linfar on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:49:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I agree that fighting Obama's nomination (2.00 / 5)

is now wrong.  I also think it's a fool's errand.  I know there are people who like to beat their heads against the wall, but I hate to watch.


That's it, baby; let's go win this election!
by Beltway Dem on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:03:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Dementia (none / 0)

I have a neighbor who has (vascular) dementia and his wife who is a nice woman is his caregiver. I talk with her a lot because I worry about them. I think I have gotten a bit of a feel for how difficult her life is. Not long ago I had my own taste of what it feels like to start losing your mental facilities (I have an inflammatory illness I am battling with and part of it manifests itself neurologically) I think I am doing well, relative to many people, but it has given me a real desire to help people struggling with these kinds of illnesses. I guess what I want to say is that there is a lot we could be doing to help people with dementia that we are NOT, as a society doing.

Doctors are passive, patients are passive, everybody seems beaten down by a situation which is not cast in stone.

We could do so much better, in so many ways. The system is broken. Its broken and there is so much apathy that I don't think many people even want to fix it. They want to just let it, themselves, others die. They are tired of fighting.

We have to fight back against apathy, and take charge of our futures.

I know that Democrats are supposed to hate Republicans but the reality is that sometimes AT LEAST WE BOTH ENGAGE.. At least there is DEBATE.

One can hopefully see that CARING is FAR better than NOT caring, unless you really have bad things at heart, which I doubt of many people do at all.

We need to try to do the best we can..

Good luck.. Hang in there.


Universal healthcare IS a core Democratic value
Without a REAL committment to it, we WON'T win in November.
by architek on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 08:44:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Prayers (2.00 / 8)

for you and your mother.  For strength, for patience, for support from those around you.


by Jafo2008a on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:26:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thinking About the Whole (none / 0)

linfar, Why are you against Alzheimer's drugs?  Did your mother develop some of the side effects?  Aricept worked well with my mother in law, didn't appear to help my mom.  My husband and I were the caregivers for both of them.  They have both passed away now, and the biggest regret I have is that my memories of my mom when she was herself are blurred beyond recognition by the 8 years of her decline before she died.

I never attended one of those 'support' groups.  It sounds like it's a good thing I didn't.


"There are two kinds of statistics: the kind you look up and the kind you make up" --Rex Stout
by LIsoundview on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 03:36:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Huperzine is similar and its OTC (none / 0)

But it needs choline in the diet to work with.. choline and B5. Plus fish oil - lots it, with DHA and EPA for the mitochondria.. antioxidants and whey for glutathione. Betaine HCL, probiotics, lactoferrin because the old stomach doesn't digest things well. Often there are issues.

Lots of people also have lots of crap in their bile.. it accumulates. That causes systemic inflammation that people just ignore because they think "all old people have that". Well, its true, but its not unavoidable. Its caused by glycation of the body's connective tissue.

Creatine may be able to help old people. Arginine too. (It dramatically improves microcirculation)

Very few doctors know c*** about the COMMON diseases of aging. Many doctors just recommend folic acid and B12, but so many people's metabolism is so incredibly screwed up that its very FAR beyond that.

We need to start dealing with environmental toxins.. that is the real issue here. People with neurodegenerative diseases are the canaries in the coal mine.. we could all be there soon..

Seriously.


Universal healthcare IS a core Democratic value
Without a REAL committment to it, we WON'T win in November.
by architek on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 08:54:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Please disregard what I said about creatine.. (none / 0)

Just for the hell of it I plugged creatine and alzheimers into PubMed and got back 140 hits.. however, I can see that creatine may not be helpful in AD, it may even be harmful. It is helpful in some other situations, though.

One of the problems with our medical system is that it OFTEN ignores inexpensive, safe and effective treatments that exist, because they may not be PATENTABLE.

Also, doctors will almost never be informed of things like that.. nobody is going to buy them lunch or send them to hawaii to talk to them about (insert name of inexpensive alternative treatment here)

get my point?

Also, things like this are being systematically ignored...

Guess why?

Long-term Air Pollution Exposure Is Associated with Neuroinflammation, an Altered Innate Immune Response, Disruption of the Blood-Brain Barrier, Ultrafine Particulate Deposition, and Accumulation of Amyloid β-42 and {alpha}-Synuclein in Children and Young Adults

http://tpx.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstr act/36/2/289


Universal healthcare IS a core Democratic value
Without a REAL committment to it, we WON'T win in November.
by architek on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 09:10:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thinking About the Whole (none / 0)

I agree. Thanks for that very thoughtful diary. I'm proud to be associated with you. Let's fight McCain together and use our assertive voices to make America a better place.


by mikeplugh on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 04:04:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

thank you, linfar (2.00 / 6)

I read this story at Salon.com about Dean supporters opposing Senator Kerry in 2004, and I was one of them, but I chose to fall in line at the very end.

Many of the statements we made in that article sound strikingly similar to those made by Hillary supporters today:

http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/20 04/02/04/deaniacs/index.html


by slinkerwink on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:47:40 AM EST

screaming's good for the soul (2.00 / 10)

and I heartily thank any Hillary supporter who lies to the pollster (particularly in swing states!) and says he's going for McCain.

It's just a machine, you can lie to a machine.

I believe that no one on this site will vote for McCain in the fall, and I always have.

So let 'em scream, they've worked hard and earned some frustration.

But give 'em a hug too, because it won't always go your way, and you'll be hurting sometime too.


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:14:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Great link! (none / 0)

Some excellent insight into how history repeats itself and how short our memories are:

One reason there's such a sense of betrayal in the Dean movement is that they don't feel defeated, they feel robbed. For some of the movement people who've given their whole souls to Dean over the last year, their campaign didn't lose the Iowa and New Hampshire primaries. Iowa and New Hampshire were stolen from them. And the person who stole them was John Kerry.


by skohayes on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 02:30:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Great link! (none / 0)

Wouldn't it have been the same the other way around as well? People have given everything for Obama as well. If anything, I see Obama being more of an extension of Dean and his supporters than Hillary was. I just seems like the grassroots network and 50 state strategy finally won this time. And Obama was my third choice and Hillary my fourth by the way.


by vibber419 on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:05:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: thank you, linfar (none / 0)

Great article. I wonder how many of those Dean supporters actually did stay home on election day or wrote in Dean? Three million, maybe?

Point is (to me anyway) that it's important for the nominee's people to reach out to heal the whole and to bring the people back in. Intimidation and marginalization aren't going to be effective. Perhaps there are areas for real compromise. One example: lots of people around here aren't even willing to pretend they would be OK with Clinton as the VP choice; they're downright hostile to the idea, even though it would bring most of the rest of the people enthusiastically on board without reservation.

Call someone a dead-ender and next thing you know, it's a badge of honor.


by SophieL on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 04:58:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thinking About the Whole (2.00 / 6)

Hey SW, I think lkthis would make a wonderful diary--how about it?


by linfar on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:50:56 AM EST

Re: Thinking About the Whole (2.00 / 9)

Great post, Linfar, in multiple ways.

And taking care of a beloved failing parent is so hard.  My best to both of you.

Perfect analogy.

More proof that what ties us together is more powerful than what divides us.


by mady on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:55:07 AM EST

Re: Thinking About the Whole (2.00 / 9)

Thanks mady. Sometimes it seems we lose sight of how the little things really are big things and show us the way.


by linfar on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:58:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thinking About the Whole (2.00 / 1)

Your diary was extremely personal and very poignant.  Thank you very much for sharing it.


Congratulations Steny Hoyer! Our 2008 Chickenshit Leader Of The Year!
by RockvilleLiberal2 on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 05:29:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wow (2.00 / 11)

Fantastic diary, lin!


Linfar's co-blogger opposing John McCain
by psychodrew on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:55:20 AM EST

Re: Thinking About the Whole (2.00 / 8)

Thanks Drew. I appreciate it so much that we are together about Hill and Obama :)


by linfar on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:57:41 AM EST

Re: Thinking About the Whole (2.00 / 9)

My aunt gave up many years of her life to take care of my other aunt who was dying.  I learned at a very young age that guardian angels such as yourself are few and far between and are to be treasured.


Linfar's co-blogger opposing John McCain
by psychodrew on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:00:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thinking About the Whole (2.00 / 8)

My mother would dispute the guardian angel bit--more like guardian devil, she'd say. Prolly true to--we fight like cats and dogs--altho I have to rein ii in a lot these days.


by linfar on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:03:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Your diary is heartbreaking (2.00 / 9)

and, while I one who butted keyboards with you in the past, I hope you will accept my deepest hopes for some respite for you and your mother.  When I read this I felt ashamed because I thought -- could I be so selfless?  I'm adding you and your mom to my prayer list, linfar.  Not because I actually think prayers affect anything -- but in saying them, I a reminded daily of those who are better than I am -- and those who are worse off.  You are better than I am.


by gchaucer2 on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:57:48 AM EST

Sorry for the typos (2.00 / 1)


by gchaucer2 on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:58:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Your diary is heartbreaking (2.00 / 6)

gchaucer, you are much too modest. I will never think of the wildfire nightmare here last winter without thinking of you and how you played such a Huge Role in keeping that thread going on dkos for several days. I felt like someone was holding my hand the whole time while I was terrified and alone. Also frightened I wouldn't know what to do or be able to get my Mom out if I had to. I still think of that experience as blogging's finest hour. It was real people lending a hand and helping so many trappped and desperatge people get a lifeline. And you led the way--no question about it.


by linfar on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:08:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

wildfire blogging (2.00 / 1)

i didn't know this had happened (the blog reactions not the fires) and if i would ahve i doubt i would have realized how important it was to the people affected. thanks to linfar for clueing me in, and bloggers like gchaucer for their work.


the time to rise has been engaged.
by catchaz on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:26:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: wildfire blogging (2.00 / 4)

Yeah, catchaz, it was a stunning achievement. People from all over the fire  area would ask for what they needed [a ride, message sent,help with evacuating] for updates on fire info so they could know which route to use to evacuate, for help finding loved ones and relatives, for help with their animals--especially horses--so that when the city of DelMar opened the fair grounds so people could bring their horses there we could pass that information on. People all over the araa also sent in whatever info they had so it sort of acted like information central. It was a a major, major resource and really helped hundereds if not thousands of people.  


by linfar on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:37:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I have to tell you, (none / 0)

there wasn't a moment I wasn't thinking about you and your Mom.  I was terrified for the both of you because I knew how close the fires were and your dilemma in moving to safe quarters.  Everytime I saw one of your posts I said a prayer of thanks.  I hope to God we never have to do that again.


by gchaucer2 on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:26:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

linfar (2.00 / 6)

I can't tell you how happy I am to have you working to get Democrats elected.  You are my newest favorite person.

My mother has Alzheimer's too but she is in a nursing home.  You have a tough job as caregiver.  If you haven't found them yet, there are some online chat groups that can give you an outlet for the stress 24/7.

One of my best friends moved in with her mother  because her mom did not want to leave her home.  After a few years she did have to put her in a nearby nursing home because the stress was impacting the my friend's health.  It was a hard decision but in the end her mom loves the new place and my friend says the staff is great.

I hate Alzheimer's.  It takes our loved ones away from us.  Huge hugs for you!


No Way, No How, No McCain!
by GFORD on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:05:46 PM EST

Re: linfar (2.00 / 10)

thanks for your comment GFORD. I know that step is probably down the road altho I pretend it isn't and both yearn for and hate the idea. Yesterday was a rough day. I dropped her off at the senior center where she volunteers on thursdays for a couple hours and as I watched her walk away my heart just turned over because I didn't barfely recognized the old hunched lady tottering towards the entrance. I went to a nearby park and balled. The grief is unrelenting.


by linfar on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:13:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think I'm on the verge of learning a big truth. (2.00 / 9)

Lin, you have once again surprised me. I'm learning something here. I have, at times in this primary, really, REALLY disliked you. But I think that if we met in real life, I'd probably like you. We could even be friends. There's some greater truth in this. I started thinking about this with your "wolf" diary and then this one. I'm rarely surprised about human nature, but I'm learning something here.

All good thoughts to you and your Mom. Such a difficult situation.

I was thinking. I feel like I know that you're a pretty take charge sorta person. Have you ever thought about possibly starting your own informal group with other Alzheimer's caregivers? Maybe just a once a week coffee time or something. I don't know. Just a thought. The logistics might be difficult.

As for the politics, I've begun to wonder if there hasn't been an organized Republican effort to encourage Hillary supporters to act in the best interests of the Republican party. Some of the owners of the more vitriolic sites are anonymous, and I wonder if they maybe haven't always been part of an organized Republican effort. I wonder if we'll ever know.

I think that the number of Clinton supporters who will throw away all the principals she stands for to enable a President McCain is small. I believe that some with evil agendas will attempt to lead the more gullible, to achieve their ends, but I also believe in the overall intelligence of the Clinton activist base. Who knows? I could be all wrong, but I don't presently think so.

Have a good day.


John McCain supports privatizing Social Security.
by Travis Stark on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:05:50 PM EST

Thank you, linfar... (2.00 / 11)

I completely agree. I still sometimes have to deal with my raw emotions about Hillary, the campaign, the sexist attacks, the ugly media bias... All of it. But still, will all of that prevent me from supporting Obama? No.

Obama's NOT our enemy... McBush is. I just wish that our pro-Hillary friends who are still protesting Obama's nomination remember this. If Hillary can put her emotions aside and support Obama because she wants what's best for this country, why can't the rest of us do so as well?


No way, no how, no McCain! :-)
by atdleft on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:20:01 PM EST

And btw... (2.00 / 5)

I'm so sorry about your mother. I feel your pain. My 93 year old grandmother has dementia, and she's living at our house as my father is her primary caregiver. I understand how tough it must be for you, so please accept this ((((hug)))) from me.


No way, no how, no McCain! :-)
by atdleft on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:25:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you, linfar... (2.00 / 5)

Very well said, Andrew. I read somewhere about the huge depression that hits failed presidential candidates--I guess it is universal and enormous--and here she is giving the speech of her life in support of Obama because she knows how bad McCain would be.


by linfar on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:39:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you, linfar... (2.00 / 5)

That depression is nowhere near as bad as the depression that hits a caregiver when the person they care for passes away. Caregiving becomes an all consuming purpose for the caregiver and then it suddenly ends. It takes quite awhile to fill that void. Staying involved in other activities, like politics, is the best thing you can do for yourself.

And yes, I speak from experience. I was my mother's caretaker 24/7 and had to watch her slowly waste away from ALS. I went through a similar situation recently. My fiancee passed away six months ago after a year-long battle for her life. That was the hardest 12 months of my life.

Stay strong, for yourself and your mom. Wish I could give you a hug. That's about the best thing anyone can do for a caregiver.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:32:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you, linfar... (2.00 / 2)

MSO1, many {{{hugs}}} coming back to you.


by linfar on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 03:42:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

right on point Linfar (2.00 / 7)

and there is no reason Hillary supporters cannot honor her by emulating her without giving up their desire to see change in the party and media.


by linc on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:23:07 PM EST

Re: right on point Linfar (2.00 / 3)

Hiya linc. I always think of us as the two desperadoes way, way back when. You are exactly right. No one is saying you can't work to change the party or the way things are done--and we need to do that. But the best praise for Hillary is to honor her by endorsing Obama. We need a united party to defeat McNasty.


by linfar on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:42:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

as long as (none / 0)

I get to wear the black hat ;)


by linc on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:44:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thinking About the Whole (2.00 / 5)

Linfar, thank you for this brilliant diary and glimpse into your life. My advice to Clinton supporters frustrated with the outcome of the primary to think constructively: What must be changed about the nomination process? What are the arguments for and against such changes? Can we create a system that respects all voters, all states, yet does not simply award the nomination to whoever has the most national name recognition and money?

The response I have heard to this question is that 2016 (or 2012) is "too late". That kind of thinking is a guarantee of failure; when you realize how much work there is to be done, and how difficult it will be, it becomes obvious that we need to think about this now. Giving up on the future because you're angry about the present only ensures you will be angry in the future, too. And for the sake of progress, think in general terms - think about a system that would support the best hypothetical candidate, not just the candidate you like best currently. Imagine, for example, a hypothetical race between Bill Richardson and Claire McCaskill, reversing the roles of gender and experience (feel free to replace those with any other role-reversing choices you can think of).

Caucuses won't simply vanish in a puff of smoke. And the rules will be easier to change when all of us - even Gravel supporters - are united in our desire to change them, with reasoning that extends beyond who we might have supported in 2008.


Visit Election Inspection for analysis, polls, and predictions!
by X Stryker on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:25:00 PM EST

Re: Thinking About the Whole (none / 0)

X Stryker--you say this so well and clearly. What this primary has done for me is make me want to get more involved, not less, with the dem party to see that the caucus system goes the way of the dodo. Of course, how to replace it with a fair alternative is a good question. this whole priamry fight  has also made me realize how little I know about how the DNC works and how officials are selected. Now moving the DNC headquarters to Chicago indicates it will be an Obama supporting org to the nth degree--good and bad. But we have to get this guy elected first :)  


by linfar on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:47:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thinking About the Whole (none / 0)

I think he actually moved some of the key functions, but not (for example) Howard's office. So part of the DNC is in Chicago, and part in DC - and the Chicago part I imagine will return to DC after the election, no matter who gets elected. But for now, yes, I think Obama is calling the shots - not necessarily a bad thing when you consider his strategy and platform are more or less carrying Howard Dean's banner. (by which I mean that Dean and Obama will likely work well together, from the same playbook)

I myself am not ready to call for the elimination of caucuses, although I am open to the idea. I think it's fair to say that I'd like to see a dialogue, both about caucuses and about which order the state contests are held in. For the most part, the fate of caucuses may depend on the political will of those who live in caucus states. Iowa? Unlikely to give up its caucus system. Other states, however, may be more amenable.

Puerto Rico changed its system this year, from one that usually gives 100% of its caucus votes to whoever the Governor endorses, to a regular primary. Change happens.


Visit Election Inspection for analysis, polls, and predictions!
by X Stryker on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 04:03:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thinking About the Whole (2.00 / 4)

Great diary Lin,

I have a great respect for the notions that you are speaking of in this diary.  To me it seems like the old saying is true:

"The squeaky wheel gets oiled"

This is exactly how things work, not just in politics but everywhere in our society.  And I concur that this is wrong.

People who complain at the service counter get better service and attention.  People that Sue for representation, recognition, and reward get what they want while thousands suffer quietly.  People want services geared to helping them, but don't want to pay the taxes for them expecially when they don't see a direct benefit (although one generally exists).

There is a culture of abuse, where it's "me me me" with no thought what this does to "us" and "them".  There are counter examples, but bye and large, this society we have rewards those that take advantage and self-promote at the expense of all others, and sometimes at their own expense.

The only way to change it is to change the way we work.  We all have to begin to commit to improving our society, or we will watch it continue to deteriorate.  This can be done in big ways and little ways.  How often do we think of those that cannot speak for themselves in our daily life?

The only question left is:  What are you prepared to do about it?


by Why Not on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:25:08 PM EST

Re: Thinking About the Whole (none / 0)

Why Not, I liked your comment and I've been thinking aoburt it. bur first I am thowing it back to you. Waht are you prepared to do??


by linfar on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 04:01:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thinking About the Whole (2.00 / 1)

Linfar,

I wasn't trying to call you out with the question, it was more of a rhetorical question for people that read this thread to think about and hopefully act upon.

However since you put it to me, which is certainly fair, I will tell you that I my attitude towards life has always tended towards helping the common good rather than my personal advancement, to a fault.  And at times it has hindered my ability to really help those in need or myself (I have been pretty easy prey for some people to take advantage of me in the past).

That being said there are things large and small that everyone can do to help those that cannot help themselves.

In my Daily life, I treat others with respect, and when I come across a situation where something has been done for someone that campaigned, I try to extend some of that to people that didn't know about it.  I work in an environment where I have to make decisions about people's documentation and I try to help them (or those working on their behalf) without giving in to pressures from those that demand it, or at the very least helping those who have a problem with the sorts of solution that are within their means (that they might not otherwise know about).

I have also donated to charities that I feel are worthwhile and that have a real impact in helping those that cannot help themselves.  Recently to Doctors without borders because I felt the people of Myanmar were hurt awfully due to the recent Typhoon and I read that they were actively working to help these people.

Previously I have worked to monitor the 2004 election (election protection) so that all people would get their rights observed.  This is a somewhat ironic thing for me to do since as a resident alien I cannot vote in US elections.  However I was happy to do it, because I feel it is a right that needs to be exercised by all who wish to, and no one should be denied it if they want to exercise it though scurrilous tactics.

Politically I have generally supported those politicians that seem to have the good of society in mind.  Talk of tax cuts without any mention or thought to what it does to those that are less fortunate, to what it does to our infrastructure, or to our society will never gain my support.  In this I am very clear.  My fundamental belief is that we are stronger as a whole and not in parts.  That we are better when we work together for the benefit of all, rather than just personal gain.  This is the part of the Democratic message I like the best.  These are the causes; the tasks which I feel have real value.

These are just some of the things I have done, but I will continue to seek ways to help others even though it can come with a price at times.

So now that you know my life's story (well some of it although this response feels like it has been a novel), I leave it to you to decide what to do.

To give you an idea, your active stance for unity in the Democratic Party after this bitter nomination is to be commended (and this time I am referring directly to you) and I hope you continue with this goal.

On a personal note I felt your story from above is touching and I'd like you to know that my best thoughts are with you and your mother as you deal with this difficult situation in your lives.


by Why Not on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 07:46:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thinking About the Whole (2.00 / 2)

I absolutely agree with what you've written.

And I'm scared to death of what will happen when my parents' health starts to falter.  They're both in their late 60s and doing fairly well thus far.  But I'm aiming to start a Ph.D. program in Fall 2009, so 'what if' is a huge concern.


by Dreorg on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:28:53 PM EST

Re: Thinking About the Whole (none / 0)

Dreorg, I expect you'll be ok for another decade or so :) but I just read that every 71 seconds someone develops Alzheimers and that it is now the 6th leading cause of death in the US. also that anyone over 85 has a one in chance of getting it. We are facing an epidemic. What is your Ph.d in? I have one of those :) but my advisors were right--the best use I ever had of it was getting reservations in a restaurant :) kkkkiddiing.


by linfar on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:53:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thinking About the Whole (none / 0)

Business Administration - Accounting.  I am a CPA.

While the profession is fairly conservative overall, I've been surprised as the number of fellow auditors that I've met who are willing to admit to Democratic leanings.  But I think it is the nature of the work - there's a significant minority of us that I've talked to who have 'preserve the public trust' as a motivator.


by Dreorg on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:34:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thinking About the Whole (none / 0)

Wow. I would have never in a million years suspected a motivation for some in the field to be preserve the public trust. Impressive... Here's to your degree :)


by linfar on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 02:01:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thinking About the Whole (none / 0)

Oh, rest assured, the tax accountants are all in it for the money!  


by Dreorg on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 02:52:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

thanks to Linfar and all caregivers (2.00 / 4)

people who literally care for others' well-being are the most important people on earth, whether they be nurses and others caring for strangers or family members like Linfar and others here caring for their loved ones. thanks to all of you.


the time to rise has been engaged.
by catchaz on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:29:51 PM EST

Re: Thinking About the Whole (2.00 / 3)

Travis, you really made me laugh. :) :) I think we are all learning about ourselves as a result of this primary debate we had on mydd. I think who we had decided to support determined a lot about how we saw things and what we said about them. And I thought Obama supporters in their comments were the spawn of the devil. But now Hillary supporters are trashing me and they aren't any nicer. So we are all the same, really. It's funny you mention that idea of starting a group--I have thought about it. But I have so much responsiblity with my Mom I just don't want anymore--and caretakers have overwhelming needs. I have never seen anything like it. The job is just so hard. Just picture your Mom or Dad becoming a child in front of  your eyes--a child who can't remember for more than  5 minutes what they just said or did. And last night at the meetring I went to in San Diego, one guy had a gambling problem and had Adult Protective Services called on him, another guy was ousted after 10 years of taking care of his father, but he is also unemployable and doesn't work, another woman had her family call APS on her, a different woman was trying to get her Mom relocated to a rehab place in Cal from Arizona after her Mom  had 2 strokes and on and on. I wouldn't know where to begin.

I just wish we could go around the damn table and let everyone have their say :)

As for politics, I KNOW there is some repug infiltration of the Hill protest movement--and I have also begun to wonder how long it has been going on?? Several sites now seem suspect to me. I wish I could agree with you about the Clinton base. I think anger is overwhelming reason at this point--and I do think it is being inflamed. Unfortunately, I don't see it ending before the convention--if then.


by linfar on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:30:42 PM EST

Re: Thinking About the Whole (2.00 / 4)

Wow.  That's almost all I can say.  Excellent diary.  

Rec'd


Obama/Adam West or Bruce Campbell or Lucy Lawless '08
by Purple with Green Stipes and Pink Polka Dots Dem on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:33:10 PM EST

Re: Thinking About the Whole (2.00 / 3)

You are an incredible writer.  :)

Thanks for sharing your story.  I wish both you and your mom the best.  She is very lucky to have you.


by JustJennifer on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:40:00 PM EST

Re: Thinking About the Whole (2.00 / 1)

Lin, thanks for sharing your story with us. I can only imagine how hard it must be for you and how lucky most of us are. It seems to me like you would make a great leader for others in the group who feel like you do. Why not start your own group? I think you would be great at it.


"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Hillary's husband
by venician on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:50:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thinking About the Whole (2.00 / 4)

Thanks venican--see upthread. Caretakers are so overwhelmed. I had no idea. You have to learn to deal with medicare and medicaid and social security and the VA. You have to deal with hospitals and rehab centers. Everywhere you turn it is doctors and drugs and the bureauocracy {sp}Most caretakers are completely around the bend from lack of support. I just want eveyone to get to have their say :)


by linfar on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:00:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thinking About the Whole (none / 0)

Susie, why on earth did you downrate this?


by auronrenouille on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 03:21:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thinking About the Whole (none / 0)

Sorry.  Sometimes my 2s show up as 1s.  Thanks for letting me know.
I'm very sympathetic to caregivers.  Am a daily visitor to a nursing facility for a loved one.
by susie on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 03:33:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thinking About the Whole (none / 0)

Oh my, I'm sorry to hear that :(.


by auronrenouille on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 12:38:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thinking About the Whole (none / 0)

lol. Thanks JJ. But as I said upthread-- she doesn't see it that way at all. I am the devil's child...a thankless, no good rabble rouser who uses that aweful "f" word. It's not like that completely anymore, but a lot :) Like when I drive, if she is in the car, I have to travel about 20 miles an hr. It is hilarious.


by linfar on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 02:05:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thinking About the Whole (2.00 / 3)

Great diary, Lin.  It brings some things to mind, so I hope you (and others) will indulge me, as well as forgive a rather lengthy response.

When I was a sophomore in college, my parents summoned me home to visit with my ailing Grandmother (a month before my planned visit for winter break).  

Having outlived all her younger siblings, she was 73 years old and had only months before been diagnosed with Alzheimer's Disease.  Her mental condition had rapidly deteriorated.  Essentially, I had been called home to say goodbye to a woman I had loved and admired.  She had always been strong, smart, independent.  

When I was old enough to understand, she would tell me about what it was like to be a "first wave" feminist while we picked blackberries from the hillsides of my grandparent's ranch.  I would climb the apple tree in the back yard, a basket dangling from the crook of my arm, while she pointed out the ones she wanted for the night's pie.  While it baked, she would tell me about working in a munitions plant during WWII, about running track in college, and explain the difference between communism and socialism.

When I got home that October, she didn't at first recognize me.  She asked when I had been released from prison, and only moments later inquired as to wether or not I enjoyed serving in the Navy--I was neither a convict or a sailor.

I spent as many days as I could afford, visiting her twice daily.  In the sort time I was home, her condition continued to deteriorate.  When I left, I'm not sure she knew who I was.

As difficult as this was, I cannot imagine how hard it must be for you to care for your Mother in the way that you do, Linfar, day in and day out.  It speaks volumes about you that you're able to manifest the love and respect for her in this way.  Truly, it's beyond admirable.

I'm so very glad that you have decided, as has Hillary, to support Obama.  I think that he too sees the bigger picture, and will fight to resound the voices of the underprivildged, the poor, and the sick.  With our help, he'll invogorate our nation, press for progressive values, restore or image in the eyes of the world, help heal our divisions, and keep us safe.

We must do all we can to prevent a McCain presidency, and I'll happily fight along side you.


Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove.
by fogiv on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:47:52 PM EST

Re: Thinking About the Whole (2.00 / 3)

fogiv, your comment is wonderful and worth every minute. I especiallyh thought this was just lovely:
"When I was old enough to understand, she would tell me about what it was like to be a "first wave" feminist while we picked blackberries from the hillsides of my grandparent's ranch.  I would climb the apple tree in the back yard, a basket dangling from the crook of my arm, while she pointed out the ones she wanted for the night's pie.  While it baked, she would tell me about working in a munitions plant during WWII, about running track in college, and explain the difference between communism and socialism."

I am so sorry about your Grandmother. She sounds like she was very special and loved her grandson a lot.

I knew Hillary "got" the alzheimers epidemic. We may have to help Obama with it. But I trust together than we will do that and he will respond in good prgressive dem fashion.


by linfar on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:05:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Very Good Diary, but (2.00 / 3)

I strongly disagree with one point:

"Yes, the DNC favored one candidate over the other."

If that was the case, then why did Hillary Clinton have the majority of unelected DNC Super Delegates pretty much right up until the point that Obama clinched the nomination?

Why did over a 100 DNC unelected Super Delegates endorse Hillary Clinton before a single vote was cast?

I'm not trying to stir up any shit, I just think the record requires clarification in this regard.


Two riders were approaching......the wind begins to howl!
by John in Chicago on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:58:43 PM EST

Re: Very Good Diary, but (2.00 / 2)

I don't mean super delegates. I mean Dean and Donna, etc. I mean the actual party apparatus. And who on earth ever devised that proportional voting system should be taken out and shot. I mean you could win the vote and lose the delegate count.


by linfar on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:09:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Very Good Diary, but (none / 0)

Well, Donna is a Super. Dean is the DNC chair, who doesn't have a vote on the rules committee. What did Dean do that led you to believe he preferred Obama?

I mean, I am sure one can draw the assumption that Dean personally preferred Obama based on their mutual belief in pursuing a 50-state strategy as well as their mutual opposition to the unilateral invasion of Iraq, but are there any overt public statements and/or actions by Howard Dean that you believe demonstrates favor for one candidate over another?

I honestly thought Dean played it pretty neutral the whole way, even though I strongly suspected he preferred Obama.


Two riders were approaching......the wind begins to howl!
by John in Chicago on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:15:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thinking About the Whole (2.00 / 2)

"My dream candidate would be Joe Lieberman."

Wow. Just Wow.

That is all.


Two riders were approaching......the wind begins to howl!
by John in Chicago on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:59:14 PM EST

Re: Thinking About the Whole (2.00 / 3)

Me too John, Me too. What the hell else can you say?


by linfar on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:06:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thinking About the Whole (2.00 / 3)

Best wishes for you and your mother.  I'm sure that it's a very difficult and heartwrenching task.


by rfahey22 on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:04:06 PM EST

On the whole (2.00 / 1)

really good diary, Alzheimer is not fun to see a relative go through, there are some people doing research into finding more effective medicines (I have read a few pieces lately), but we aren't there yet.

Recced


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:07:23 PM EST

As someone who ... (2.00 / 2)

is involved in one faction of healthcare
(paramedic) and is constantly exposed to the varied situations that we humans find ourselves in because of those issues, I thank you for your diary.  All too often I see families in disarray because of either choosing to care for an incapacitated loved or or being forced to do it because 'no one else will'.  It's truly a mind boggling task that few really have any true understanding of.  Simple tasks like regular housecleaning or grocery shopping suddenly become major feats, and are thrown in with every other aspect of life exponentially.

I sincerely have hopes for some health care reform.  There are already some wicked things being put into place by the private sector, simply to make money off folks' suffering and ill fate, not to actually provide assistance.  I hope we can provide some reasoned legislation that will make those types of private sector enterprises be held more accountable for their efficiency.  I was sure that Hillary understood more of those types of issues than any other candidate, and that was one of the major reasons I supported her.  These type of issues take a person who is committed to being a 'wonk' as far as the real substance of the issue goes, and the understanding of the ramifications of any actions taken.  She has that gift, and I sincerely hope she is elevated to a higher office (think Senate Majority Leader) in order to push her agenda.

I understand your situation.  My SO's father was ill most of last year, came to be with us in the summer along with his mom.  He was paralyzed as a result of sloppy  treatment in an ER and then again as an inpatient, the spinal cord injury not being complete until a week after the injury with him being walked in the hospital every day on pain medications.  He died early this year.  Mom is still going to be with us, a life changing event for all concerned since moving across the country  had to occur for the parents.  These things can affect us all in our everyday outlook on life.  Sometimes I think it can make us more negative, sometimes I think it forces us to be more vocal about issues we can actually still make 'noise' about, because we were 'robbed' of that right in other areas.

I think most of us will eventually support Obama.  Some enthusiastically, such as yourself, some tepidly, such as myself.  Some may not.  The largest problem I see here is the group think ideology that we all have to just step in line and forget the pieces of ourselves that were hacked at during the primary.  The winners have no 'right', as I see it, to whine that we are concerned about our 'feelings', they have been made 'whole' and victorious by the outcome;  that doesn't give them the right to insist that the vanquished forget their scars or wounds while the bandages are still in place to counter the bleeding.

Peace.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:10:05 PM EST

See, even I did .... (2.00 / 3)

something I try never to do.  I got all my 'stuff' out there and forgot to tell you how sorry I am for your Mom's situation, and how much I admire you for being there for her.

That is a truly amazing thing that we see far too little of these days.

Love to you.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:15:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: As someone who ... (2.00 / 2)

Jeeze, emsp--paramedic is a rough job. I had a good friend who did it and the stress was extraordinary. I liked Hill too in part because of her committment around health care. I fully beleived things would change if she were elected. I know no such thing about McCain. In fact the opposite-- things could actually get worse-- altho that seems impossible. Take all the time you need to grieve. I do not feel I have made a "remarkable" turnaround. I am supporting my candidate still-- by backing Barack :) Always good to hear from you.


by linfar on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 02:13:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thinking About the Whole (none / 0)

Uprated because the comment may be worthy of some harsh disagreement, but not a hide rating.  I suggest we start showing respect and, better, engaging those with whom we disagree.


by MMR2 on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:20:44 PM EST

Re: Thinking About the Whole (none / 0)

I didn't rate it at all, I can see your reasoning.

But I think the "Obama is not pro national security" line does merit at least a TR, I just don't give those out very often.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:27:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thinking About the Whole (2.00 / 1)

emsprater--are you defending Obama? Just teasing you. Hope its ok.


by linfar on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 02:06:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thinking About the Whole (2.00 / 1)

yes, defending against an unreasonable statement.

He isn't strong on some issues, but this isn't one that he can be tarred with, IMHO.

Thanks!


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 03:13:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wonderful diary linfar (2.00 / 2)

Thinking about the good of the whole is what attracted me to Hillary too.

And thinking about the good of the whole is a big factor in my choice for president in November. I will be thinking about the good of the whole and cast my vote in terms of which candidate will be better for the greater good.


by catfish2 on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:27:51 PM EST

I'm keeping an open mind (1.00 / 1)

But right now there is no cohesive foreign policy/national security philosophy in the Democratic party. Like JFK said, we should bear any burden to ensure the success of liberty.

I didn't think a pre-emptive Iraq invasion was the way to go, set a bad precedent. But now I side with Colin Powell, we broke it, it's our responsibility.

Yeah Joe Leiberman is starting to look a little less crazy these days.


by catfish2 on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 02:01:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How did you see Dean early on (1.00 / 0)

I liked his muscular unapologetic stance. He came along at a time when Dems were afraid of their own shadows, and he appears to have melted into that side of the party.

Lamont was too vacuous.

I was actually for him in 2004. Am so glad he didn't win. He's been so sloppy running this primary.

Harry Reid was on a local radio show recently and his explanation of Leiberman was refreshingly sober and calm: Joe votes with the Dems 99% of the time, but on this one issue he's very adamant, and that is Iraq.


by catfish2 on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 02:31:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wonderful diary linfar (2.00 / 3)

Hi catfish. Good to see you. I can't imagine from a dem perspective anyone thinking McCain would  be even remotely better for the greater good. Hill knows what she is doing in terms of these two candidates. She has worked with both of them.


by linfar on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 02:16:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wonderful diary linfar (2.00 / 1)

I can't imagine that anyone paying attention for the last 8 years thinks that Bush's overly aggressive foreign policies that lack any kind of diplomacy and have done nothing to improve the security of this country is actually a model to be repeated.
What exactly do you mean by "pro national security", anyway? Amnesty for law breaking telecoms? Wiretapping citizens without warrant?
Data mining? Torturing and imprisoning innocent civilians?
How has that made us safer?

by skohayes on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 02:26:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bush's foreign policy too agressive (1.00 / 0)

too much stick not enough carrot. Agreed. No not amnesty for telecoms. There needs to be a middle ground - acknowledgement of the need for national security without losing your mind in preemptive invasions.


by catfish2 on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 02:32:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bush's foreign policy too agressive (none / 0)

Yeah, that's worked out well in Iraq and Iran so far, hasn't it? You do remember when the Shah was removed, don't you?
You need to educate yourself, first on the Constitution and secondly on the history of the US and the Middle East relationship over the last 75 years or so.
by skohayes on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 06:43:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Whoa - torture no (1.00 / 0)

We need a public stance we don't tolerate torture. I side with McCain on this. If it really comes down to it, and torture is the only way to get information (and I have read up on this, torture gets us very unreliable information) then an agent can step up and break the law and be willing to accept the consequences.


by catfish2 on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 02:36:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Whoa - torture no (none / 0)

The problem with torture is that it does not produce reliable intelligence.  The torture person says what they think the interrogator wants to hear.

It's not only inhumane, it's impractical.


"There are two kinds of statistics: the kind you look up and the kind you make up" --Rex Stout
by LIsoundview on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 03:50:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Whoa - torture no (2.00 / 1)

"It can and does save lives."

An unsupported statement. The one thing we know for certain is that innocent people have been tortured to death. As such it destroys lives.


by Aris Katsaris on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:29:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wonderful diary linfar (2.00 / 2)

When exactly will we know when the job is "done" in Iraq, since the job we went in there for (WMD) never existed in the first place? Until we kill all the "terrorists"? Or until we have all the neighborhoods fenced in with razor wire to prevent ethnic killing? When we have control of the oil?
And what does "keeping dissent responsible" mean?
You sound like you'd be happier with an authoritarian government, not a Democratic one.
As for the SCOTUS decision yesterday, the majority opinion was written by Constitutional scholars who have a true understanding of the Constitution, and there is nothing in the Constitution that restricts the rights laid out there only to citizens or legal immigrants.
You might want to read it some day.
by skohayes on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 02:50:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wonderful diary linfar (none / 0)

I also opposed the Supreme Court ruling yesterday, the Constitution IMO only holds for citizens and legal immigrants, not for enemy combatants and terrorists.  There need not be any trial of any kind of them.

Not to sound like a Republican, but put quite frankly, this is an un-American stance.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed...

The rights enumerated in the Constitution were so enshrined not because we were granting them to our citizens, but because we believe that all people possess them; the ones enumerated in the Bill of Rights being so important that they must be explicitly called out. If you truly believe that it is moral, just, and right to hold people against their will without the opportunity to confront their accusers in a just court of law YOU ARE NOT AN AMERICAN. You might feel more welcome in China, and I would happily spit in your face given the opportunity.


John McCain Hates Poor People
by pneuma on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 03:14:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wonderful diary linfar (none / 0)

How come it applies to "lawful immigrants" but not to "illegal immigrants"? Neither group are citizens.
If the difference is that the latter broke the law, then why not say "It doesn't apply to criminals."

Anyway, you're simply wrong on this. Nothing on the American constitution supports your bizarre claim that its protections applies only to citizens. Those articles of it that refer only to citizens state it outright.


by Aris Katsaris on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:34:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wonderful diary linfar (none / 0)

For the last seven years, I've been called unpatriotic and un-American because I have opposed an illegal war. No more.

You sir or madam, are a coward, and a traitor to this nation. Either these truths we hold to be self-evident are worth dying for, or they are not. Anyone who has an 8th grade grasp of how our constitution was written understands that the natural rights of Locke were believed to be natural; that they were bestowed upon all people by their creator. Anyone who denies it is a liar and a coward.

Anyone who would hide behind eighteen year olds fighting in Iraq, but would not stand up and say "Yes, I will accept the risk of allowing those held against their will to the bare minimum of a fair trial is the most base form of life, and not even worthy of my contempt.

Go crawl back to Redstate, and hide under your mother's skirts. True patriots believe our ideals are worth the risk.


John McCain Hates Poor People
by pneuma on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:27:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thinking About the Whole (2.00 / 2)

An excellent diary that I'm happy to recommend on two counts.

First, my wife's grandmother is also having memory issues...big time.  I had no idea that support meetings were structured like that.  You'd think everyone could have ten minutes or so...or that the new people get to talk and the older members, who've probably already laid a lot out on the table, can only talk when they have something new to contribute.  But that structure sounds awful.  

Strangely, it reminds me of my trip to DC about two years ago.  We stopped in the National Archives to see all the historical documents.  Common sense seems to dictate that the best way to do this is to form a line at the left side of the room and to walk past, slowly, clockwise around the cases that form a half circle along the wall.

But the worker INSISTED that "there are no lines!"  He seemed to think that the best way to do it was to turn the entire archives into a clusterfuck, which, I'm sure, would make some people leave in frustration, as we did.  

Regarding the politics of your diary, I think there's a lot to consider from this primary.  Problems that were there before, but weren't noticed because they're rarely so close as this one was.  But I take it as a situation where, in sports, you realize a rule needs changing but you don't do it midseason.  There was a lot of complaining about the rules, mid-season, as it became clear that one campaign was MUCH better at caucusing, or that some states that don't seem as critical to a November win were worth more than they should have been.  But you can't change the rules, mid-season.  And you can't assume that, had the rules been different, that the outcome would have also been different, because changes in rules lead to changes in behavior (in this case, candidate and campaign behavior, and voter behavior).  


No way. No how. No McCain.
by freedom78 on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 02:01:42 PM EST